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What are scholars persecuted for in the West?
Revisionist historians Jurgen Graf and Carlo Mattogno were recently in Moscow
Russky Vestnik
No. 37-38, 2000
Translated from the Russian
Revisionist historians Graf and Mattogno were recently in Moscow.
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Webmaster's note: Perhaps the most
convincing evidence that a totalitarian 'iron curtain' has
descended over the West is, in this observer's opinion, the
strange case of the so-called 'revisionist' historians. These
brave souls, for the most part representatives of academia in
Europe, North America and elsewhere, are involved in the
reexamination, using archival material, of certain events which
occurred more than 50 years ago. One would think that such
reexamination would be protected, even welcomed, in any state
calling itself 'democratic' and espousing freedom of speech and
freedom of conscience. However, in many such countries, from
Canada to Switzerland, revisionists are persecuted, jailed,
fined, dismissed from their jobs, and even physically attacked
for the views they hold. Most important of all, they are
prevented from publishing their findings.
The revisionists are usually referred to by their
opponents as 'holocaust deniers'. But none of the revisionists
deny that mass-deportations to concentration camps occurred
during World War II. Nor do they deny that many, among them
Jews, died in those camps. What the revisionists take issue with
are the numbers, and the manner in which victims are said to have
died, and they marshall an impressive array of physical and
documentary evidence to support their viewpoint.
One leading revisionist historian, Jurgen Graf, was
recently here in Moscow researching his latest book, where he was
interviewed by the weekly newspaper Russky Vestnik.
At the beginning of May two
Western historians, Jurgen Graf from Switzerland and Carlo
Mattogno from Italy, were in Moscow. They represent the
so-called revisionist school of scholarship, which on the basis
of archival documents and other sources casts doubt on the
Zionist claims that the Holocaust, as a result of which 6 million
Jews allegedly perished, is the central event of World War II.
The history of the revisionist school in the West
is the history of unending persecution and direct physical terror
against its representatives. Jurgen Graf himself will be forced
behind bars in October, 2000. Graf and his colleague spoke on
this and other topics during the course of their visit with
Russky Vestnik editorial board member Anatoly Mihailovich
Ivanov.
Q: What were you sentenced for, and what
lies ahead for you?
GRAF: I'll tell you a little secret: Swiss
jails are practically like hotels. There'll be a television.
Writing and the use of a computer are allowed. It's like a
prison for 'petty misdemeanors'. During my confinement I plan to
study Serbo-Croatian. The situation in Yugoslavia interests me
greatly. I used to be against the Serbs, but now I support them.
Q: Why were you against the Serbs?
GRAF: That's our traditional position.
Public opinion in Western Europe was always on the side of the
Croats. One might say that this is a prejudice, because I never
seriously studied Balkan history. It's obvious that the Serbs
are victims of American imperialism and that Serbia is the only
country in Europe which dared to resist those bandits.
Q: But to return to the first question:
For what were you sentenced to prison?
GRAF: It's called 'inciting racial hatred'.
If you take issue with the existence of the gas chambers, then
according to our Western laws that's 'inciting racial hatred and
discrimination'.
Q: In what countries do such laws
exist?
GRAF: Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France,
Spain, Belgium, and Poland. But in Poland the law isn't in force
yet. It exists on paper, but it's led to no convictions yet.
One person, Professor Rataicak from the University of Opol, was
prosecuted, but later vindicated. He lost his job, but he won't
have to go behind bars. Because he didn't manage to sell very
many books.
Q: What are we to think of such laws,
which prevent historians from researching certain issues?
GRAF: I'd call these laws totalitarian: They
violate our Constitution, because the Constitution guarantees
freedom to express one's opinion, freedom of speech. This is a
problem. The Constitution 'guarantees' everything, promises
everything: freedom of research, freedom of speech, but these
freedoms exist only on paper as soon as you begin to criticize
the 'New World Order'. And in Germany the situation is
significantly worse than in Switzerland. In our country
[Switzerland] this law was passed only 4 years ago, and there
have been only around 50 trials.
Q: 50 trials in all of Europe?
GRAF: That's only in Switzerland. Of that
number, eight were related to the Holocaust. But in Germany
there have been hundreds of such [Holocaust-related] processes
already.
Q: Why, in your opinion, were such laws
passed?
GRAF: The reason is that the official
historians are unable to answer our arguments. And we've been
demanding a dialogue for a long time. What we want is a
scholarly dialogue, without name-calling, without propaganda. If
there are mistakes in our books, then they're obligated to point
out those mistakes. But insamuch as official history can't refute
us, they simply forbid our books and pass such laws.
Q: Given that such repressive measures are
being used against you, would it be safe to say that the legal
system, academia and other areas of public life in Switzerland
and other countries are under Zionist control?
GRAF: Absolutely! But of course the majority
of the population knows nothing about it. They tell you you're
free because you can vote; you can choose between socialists,
liberals and so forth and newspapers published by various parties
are freely available. But all these official parties: socialists,
liberals, conservatives and so forth differ very little from one
another. Their politics are basically one and the same. For
example, Austria's Haider has been heavily criticized. They call
him a fascist. But did you know that Haider justifies the
aggression against Yugoslavia and the embargo against Iraq? He
even supported the anti-revisionist law in 1993. There's a
'real patriot' for you! One could say that Haider is the
conservative wing of the ruling party in Austria. He's like our
Blocher, Switzerland's leading conservative. Almost all patriots
support him because they think he's a real patriotic leader. But
he also came out in favor of the [anti-revisionist] law.
Q: Has Mattogno been subject to repression
in Italy for his revisionist research into the Holocaust?
GRAF: They've left him alone. Because there
are no such laws there yet. Freedom, like in Russia.
IVANOV:In Russky Vestnik we published
a story about the De Meo trial, based on materials from the
Italian press. He's a retired teacher who was accused of
revisionism but vindicated.
Russky Vestnik also wrote about the trial of
Mr. Amodruse, a very frail and elderly historian who was
sentenced to prison and a large fine. His books were also
destroyed, just like in Nazi Germany.
GRAF: That process lasted 3 days. In my
opinion that was the most horrible political trial of all those
which have occurred in our country. It was worse than my trial.
And our little organization "Verite et Justice" plans to document
the Amodruse case, as well as all other such cases.
We've already prepared documentation about the
so-called 'Bergier Report'. This report, which was commissioned
by the Swiss government, asserts that Switzerland was responsible
for the Holocaust. Partially. Because our government didn't
protest against the persecution of Jews during the war. Bergier
is the leading historian of that school. He teaches history
somewhere in Western Switzerland, if I'm not mistaken. He's one
of the leading Masons in Switzerland, a member of the 'Alpina'
lodge, a fact which he doesn't hide.
Our organization published a severe assessment of
that report, because it's a pure falsification of history.
Q: What condition is the revisionist
school in in Europe?
GRAF: There are very few 'pure' scholars.
Propagandists are everywhere, but there are very few historians
who approach the problem on the basis of scientific evidence.
This is our third trip to Moscow. Your archives
contain a huge quantity of important documents. The books which
we've written on Majdanek and Stutthof rely to a large degree on
that material. And the big book which Carlo Mattogno is writing
on the crematoria is illustrated with documents from your Russian
archives.
Q: What sort of documents was Mr. Mattogno
able to find in our archives?
MATTOGNO:Until the Moscow archives were
opened to historians our work proceeded with great difficulty,
because we relied on the statements of witnesses and documents on
some of the concentration camps were hard to come by. Now the
situation has improved significantly. In fact one could say that
that purely scientific research on the German concentration camps
began only after the opening of the Russian archives. This goes
not only for us but for our opponents as well, who also use these
documents. One example: Before our first trip to Moscow my
private archive contained 500 original German documents relating
to Auschwitz. Now I have more that 10,000 copies of original
German documents in my possession. Here there are great
possibilities for scientific work.
Q: Isn't there a danger that if you talk
about the existence of such documents in the archives in Moscow,
they'll stop letting people in, and someone might destroy the
documents?
MATTOGNO:That's doubtful, but the archives
might sell documents to Jewish organizations. For example, a
large part of the documents relating to Masonry in the Special
Archive were bought by French Masons and taken out of the
country.
Q: And they were sold illegally, in
violation of Russian law...
Now, during the 55th anniversary of the victory
over Germany, they've been making a big deal of the 6 million
Jewish victims. In Auschwitz there was once a memorial plaque
claiming that 4 million died there, for the most part Jews. But
now our TV commentators are telling us that 2.5 million died at
Auschwitz. What happened to the other 1.5 million?
GRAF: I'd like to mention that the official
figure in Poland is now 1,200,000. Mattogno, who is relying
strictly on German documents, is in agreement with that figure.
Q: Is that figure just for Jews, or is
that for all victims in Auschwitz?
MATTOGNO:That's for all victims, and it's my
belief that roughly half of them were Jews.
Q: What was the fate of those prisoners
who passed through Auschwitz, but were not registered there?
MATTOGNO:Many prisoners were sent on to
camps in the Baltic States, and the Germans registered them
there. We don't know the exact figure, but it's around 600,000.
I'd like to add that according to the official story all of these
prisoners were killed in gas chambers immediately upon arrival at
Auschwitz. But we know better, of course.
As far as the '4 million' figure is concerned: that
number contradicts even the statements of witnesses. That was
the conclusion of the Soviet commission after the liberation of
the camp, which relies on supposed capacity of the crematoria.
Not on the real capacity, of course, because the Soviet
commission exaggerated their capacity by 10 to 12 times. Then the
commission multiplied their figure by the number of days the camp
was in existence, and on that basis is was decided that 4 million
had died there. Two weeks later the commission began
interrogating former camp prisoners, and strangely enough all of
them repeated the figure of 4 million. Thus that number became
accepted as official. I must add that not one serious historian
in the West now takes the 4 million figure seriously. For
example, Hilberg asserts in his work that 1 million Jews and
300,000 non-Jews died at Auschwitz.
IVANOV:I translated materials about the
Ernst Zundel trial in Canada. That was a ground-breaking trial.
GRAF: That trial was a huge catastrophe for
Hilberg. He was exposed there.
IVANOV:Yes, and Professor Faurisson wrote:
"I have witnessed the death of the Holocaust myth."
GRAF: A word about Hilberg, who is
undoubtedly the main specialist among our opponents. One year
ago I published a book about him and the Holocaust entitled A
Colossus on Clay Feet, where I demonstrate what kind of
deceptive methods Hilberg uses. Regarding, for example, the the
number of victims in so-called 'death camps' he uses figures
without citing any source, figures which are backed up by
nothing. He simply makes his claims, and that's it. In most of
the remainder of his work, on the other hand, where he deals with
persecutions of Jews and deportations, he uses documentary
evidence. But when he speaks of the gas chambers he relies
exclusively on statements of witnesses. Of course this is not a
valid historical method, because every serious historian knows
that documents are more important than witnesses.
Q: This is the 55th anniversary of the
victory over Germany. Do you agree that heaviest burden in the
struggle against fascism was carried by Russia, in the form of
the Soviet Union, and by Russian soldiers? Russia's combined
losses in the war were around 26 million. It's well known that
in the West very little is said about these losses, and few know
about them. But everyone knows about the '6 million' Jews, who
are mentioned constantly. Do you think that Russians have the
right to be indignant and feel offended by that?
GRAF: That's a very good question. When we
were working in the archives, Carlo said to me: "Here's a list of
prisoners who died in the camps. There are only Russians, Poles
and Germans here. No one's interested in that. No one says
anything about the dead Russians, Poles and Germans. Our
politicians are only interested in the Jews. Everyone talks
about the dead Jews, but the dead of other nationalities seem to
interest no one. This is unjust, a pure falsification of
history. Because other nations suffered no less than the Jews,
even more." In my opinion the Russian and German people suffered
more than the Jews.
A few words about that horrible war: In my
opinion, Hitler's biggest mistake was to attack the Soviet Union.
That was a huge tragedy for all nations, not just Russians and
Germans. Because our real enemy is not located in Moscow and
never has been. Though I'm an anticommunist, I consider the main
evildoer of that epoch to be not Stalin, not communism, but the
Americans. Roosevelt. Hitler was simply obligated to come to a
mutual understanding with Russia. As it turned out, the winners
in that war were, above all, America and Zionism.
IVANOV:It's my belief that Hitler actually
did come to a mutual understanding with Stalin and the leadership
of the USSR. A pact was concluded. But the Western democracies
in France, England and the US directed Hitler's aggression
against the Soviet Union on purpose, in order to decimate and
exhaust both sides... When Mr. Zundel came here he said that the
main problem [here] is not with the Holocaust, which most in
Russia correctly understand. But many on the German right, and I
include Mr. Zundel in their number, support the theory advanced
by so-called Viktor Suvorov (Vladimir Rezun) in his book
"Icebreaker", that Hitler was not to blame for attacking Russia
because Russia intended to attack Hitler, who launched a
'preventive war' in self-defense.
The conditional mood is of little value in history:
"What would have happened if..." and so on and so forth. The
fact remains that Hitler's Germany attacked Russia and the
peoples of Russia (of Russian nationality for the most part)
suffered 26 millions in losses. That's the main thing. You can
say what you want, but Hitler gave in to poor advice and attacked
Russia. That's history.
GRAF: In 1944 it seems that Hitler realized
his mistake, but by then it was too late.
Q: Are there film materials in the
archives where you're doing your research?
MATTOGNO:You've touched on an important
issue, because we've been searching for a long time for Soviet
aerial photographs. To date we know only of 50 American aerial
photos, and we hope that there are ones like them in the Russian
archives as well. It's highly unlikely that the Soviet army
would have planned a major advance without reconnaisance
photographs. In 1944 that task would have been much easier for
Soviet aviation that for the Americans, because the nearest
American bases were in Southern Italy.
And one more aspect: We know that the Soviet
authorities hid many documents after the war because they
contradicted the official version of events. One important
example is the "Auschwitz Death Books". These books were
discovered in Russia only in 1999; nothing was known about them
before then. That means they were purposely hidden by the
authorities. And we surmise that there are many more documents
like that. For example, we have no documents about Treblinka,
Belzec, Sobibor: the so-called 'eastern death camps'. But it's
impossible that the Germans produced no documentation about them.
We think that the Soviet authorities searched out these documents
and hid them.
In Russia there must be super-secret archives which
are unknown to us. For political reasons they're off-limits for
the time being. One day they may serve as a powerful political
weapon, which a future nationally-oriented government in Russia,
of which we dream, will use.
Q: And for that reason they're preventing
the emergence of a nationally-oriented regime in Moscow?
GRAF: That's one of the main reasons. But we
hope that Putin will be a real Russian patriot.
Russky
Vestnik is an Orthodox Christian weekly published in Moscow.
For more revisionist reading, see:
Russky Vestnik
is an Orthodox Christian weekly newspaper published in Moscow
Added to Site: Oct. 12 2000 - Last modified: 28 Aug. 2002
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